Episode 17: Handling Stress and Pressure as a Change Leader

by | Jul 9, 2024 | Podcast | 0 comments

Welcome to our 17th podcast. Today, we will discuss stress within organizational change management, including defining stress, some signs of stress, and how to manage it. What elements of stress management can you use today in your change effort? Keep listening to find out. Hello, Harmonious Workplaces listeners.

As always, again, we’re so glad to see you or hear you or know that you’re here with us today. I’m Rich Cruz and I’m joined by my colleagues, Sharyl Volpe. Hi,

Sharyl Volpe: Hey, Rich. Hi, everyone.

Rich Cruz: [00:01:00] And Ben Kleinman.

Ben Kleinman: Okay.

Rich Cruz: And for the last few episodes, we’ve been discussing leadership as specifically leadership through change management. And in our last episode, episode 16, if you haven’t caught that, check out our podcast at your favorite podcast spot.

And we we were talking about leadership in times of calm, And in times of crisis so in times of crisis, we’ve got this fear of change among team members. And, you know, we have other pressures for internally and externally from stakeholders. And not only can leaders feel stress, but workers, right?

Everybody can feel stress. So have you experienced that? I’m sure you have, but have you seen that in your change efforts?

Ben Kleinman: All the time. Yeah.

Rich Cruz: All the time,

Sharyl Volpe: All the time.

Ben Kleinman: I think there’s rarely been any kind of change that has not had some element of stress and it’s not necessarily bad stress and I know you’re going to give us some good definitions of that rich and, and, and Charlie will expand on all of that, but sometimes it’s, sometimes it’s a mix of both and sometimes it’s just the good old [00:02:00] tire fire.

Rich Cruz: Yeah, for Good old times.

I love the tire fire. We’ve bring, we’ve bring tire fire into this into this podcast more than any other podcast on the planet. I think that might be our trademark.

Ben Kleinman: I think we’ve got, we’ve got a couple of things that have sort of flown through a few episodes. So it’s good stuff. We usually reference tire fires and long time listeners. We’re no, we also talk about safe, psychological bean bag and things like that. So it’s a

Rich Cruz: That’s right.

Ben Kleinman: good, good merchandise coming your way soon.

Rich Cruz: Absolutely. Watch out for the t shirts. So, and Sharyl, you’ve, you’ve in, in, in what you’ve done in operations in your career and, and entertainment and finance and everything else that you’ve done, you’ve probably seen your fair share of stress too.

Sharyl Volpe: production is sort of that like tire fire that you see coming towards you. And you know, it’s going to be hard, but after you’ve done one, you know, we’ve never done two in a row that were the [00:03:00] same. And there is a certain comfort with knowing that you’ve done it at least once before, but there are always unexpected things.

There are always changes in the energy level. And what has to get done in a short period of time is extremely intense.

Rich Cruz: Yeah,

Sharyl Volpe: And you see it, you see it coming, you’re like, Oh, here we go.

Rich Cruz: absolutely. Yeah. It’s that, that tornado that’s in the distance and it keeps coming closer and closer, you know,

Sharyl Volpe: great when you’re done, when it’s over, you’re very proud, but. There

Ben Kleinman: think maybe our first episode or at one point we were talking about similarities between theater and performing arts and change and change management and transformations. And I feel like there’s something about, Sharyl, that time pressure when you know Friday night at eight o’clock the curtain goes up and No matter what you’ve already done, the show is going to start and audience will be there watching.

And so you go with what you have and somehow magically it almost [00:04:00] always comes off. And from an audience perspective, if we translate that to the business world, from a client perspective, usually that, That seems very seamless and it looks like the company, the organization has managed that change quite well internally. It could be just like you say, a rolling tire fire up until seven 59 on Friday evening. But it seems like that in, at least in theater and probably also in your productions for, for your world, it seemed like that you just somehow magically get it done. And what’s interesting to me is that I feel like in the. On the corporate side of things, you kind of have that, okay, we’re transitioning, we’re turning on the new system, we’re rolling out the new org structure, whatever it might be. There’s always carry through, there’s always lingering, there’s always like the tidy up bin or the, the fix it list for systems implementations that, you know, it’s, it’s not going to get done and you still roll things out.

And yet you have this link, you never get to that sort of cast party moment is what I’m saying. You always have this drawn out, extended.

Sharyl Volpe: [00:05:00] are sometimes things

you can’t get to. It’s true. It’s true. Rich, before you go, I just wanted to address Ben’s parallel in the corporate world. I will say that when, at Morgan Stanley, when we had an IPO, that was also of enormous proportion, that was also at high stress. Martha Stewart’s IPO, and I forget, people were falling asleep on the floor. Never leaving work to get the details that, that had to be done for her specific expectations on everything that she had created for that event. And the last thing I’ll say is all of those high stress periods are extremely bonding between the people who get through them too. And that’s why you see people at the Academy Awards saying, hanging on each other, tearful because that intensity, it’s almost like, like the war.

I was

Ben Kleinman: in the corporate world too, I think people, especially cross functionally people that would never have interacted naturally, they get thrown together for a project or transformation or something like that. And then after it’s rolled out, after it’s done months, years later, these people are still friendly with each other.

They still [00:06:00] communicate with each other. They still kind of keep tabs on each other. And it’s just lovely to see those people. Those bridges.

Rich Cruz: Yep. Absolutely.

Ben Kleinman: us way sideways, Rich, away from your original topic. So

Rich Cruz: No, no, no, no. That’s great.

Sharyl Volpe: there with you, Ben,

Ben Kleinman: maybe we do a, we do a, a, a pausey recappy kind of re restart, reignite the

Rich Cruz: Well, I mean, no, I mean, I think actually let’s keep rolling with this a little bit. All right. So, so we’ve got. You know we’ve got good stress and we’ve got bad stress, right? And when we talk about stress, we talk about usually it’s distress, right? So it’s the, it’s, it’s the grappling, right? It’s yeah, exactly.

It’s, that’s the bad stress, right? So that’s where, that’s where we’re, we’re, we’re not only in fight or flight mode, but, you know, we really feel like we’re, we are fighting this uphill battle, so to speak. Right. And that, and so we’re in that, that, that proverbial war that we just talked about. Right.

But there’s also, you know, if we can, if we can take that energy and, and all of that, That we’re feeling at that time and convert that into something that is more positive and creative, i. e. you’re on the stage and you’re, you know, and you’re performing right? This, [00:07:00] that can become you stress, right?

That’s the good stress. That’s the, that’s the pressure to perform and to do well. You know, so, you know, that’s, that’s the that’s the stuff when like whatever I’ve, You know, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve performed music, you know, I used to do, I used to drum here and there and, and all of that, you know, that’s that time when you’ve got the butterflies going and you’re like, Oh God, I hope I remember this song, you know, but then you’re in the, you’re, you’re in it and you’re co creating with everybody and you, and it just kind of, moves you forward, you know, although I will say there was one time where I did, I was doing I will survive with a group that I had never played with before and I was filling in and I took that tempo really fast.

They were like, what are you doing? So, you know, yeah. We survived though. We got through it.

Ben Kleinman: IPO situation, rich on the drums for I will survive.

Rich Cruz: Nobody wants to see that of me.

Sharyl Volpe: you, Ben, all of the dead darlings [00:08:00] that you had to put in that bin that just didn’t make it into the projects to the end that you had to just sort of put off to the side and keep in a drawer somewhere.

Rich Cruz: Well, why don’t we do this? Let’s take, let’s let’s take a quick, we’re going to take a quick break folks. When we come back, we’re going to talk about some of the signs of stress. So we’ll be back in just a second.

And we’re back. So we were just talking about, yeah, so now we’re going to talk about signs of stress, right? We, we kind of defined it. We talked about, you know, how stress can you know, handle performance, you know good and bad. So let’s kind of talk a little bit about what are those signs of stress?

How do we, how do we identify that? What have you seen

Sharyl Volpe: It becomes obvious when deadlines are missed, initiative is on the wane, quality declines, and, you know, attitudes change, tones of emails change, you know, there is [00:09:00] non compliance, teamwork fails, and there are so many things that can fall apart without the communication and the leadership and the shared goals. It’s very easy in times of high stress for people to just freak out. Right.

Ben Kleinman: I’ve seen a lot of the, I’ve seen a lot, Sharyl, and I’m glad you mentioned it of, of where the people that you’re working with suddenly have this shift in communication and they just start to get really short with each other or they start to turn in work that is semi baked. You know, it’s, it’s the cookies that are a little too underdone or it’s the, Spreadsheet that has 70 percent of the data filled in, but you’re missing that critical 30%. You know, it’s those kinds of things. People oftentimes will go silent because they’re sort of quiet, non complying and they, they sort of drag things [00:10:00] out that way. And It’s, it’s somewhat noticeable that you have this general tone of lack of communication. People start to, to fade out, if you will. And when they do engage, it’s, it’s very curt and very abrupt. And you can sense that there’s this sort of forced politeness, like I’m in a meeting and I’m going to try to behave well, but behind the scenes there’s that smoldering tire fire going on.

Sharyl Volpe: And it’s the test, it’s the test of leaders at that point. Right.

Ben Kleinman: I was just going to say, yeah, that’s where I feel like the leadership, the better leaders tend to lean in even more. They tend to not go heavy handed, but they tend to recognize the situation and they tend to be more present. They tend to, to sort of be more supportive. They tend to be more helpful in terms of rallying people together, getting people to be a little bit more. More focused on what they need to be focused on, helping to emphasize the positives, things like that.

Sharyl Volpe: And that would be connected to emotional intelligence. And there’s a lot of debate around the whole EI topic. Some people [00:11:00] are starting to say, maybe not starting, but EI and control of it. Suggests that you’re self regulating and maybe that prevents you from being authentic, right? There’s, there’s a whole spectrum of things related to EI and leaders who have control or are well practiced in their awareness of their own emotional intelligence and emotional reactions can I believe lead that ship into calmer waters on the other side of a project versus That aggressive blame throwing panic kind of, of leadership.

So I do think it’s connected to EI and I don’t think that it should be pushed off the table in favor of being more authentic or just out there and real all the time. Because in periods of high stress, you need to have some discipline and some training, right? Yeah.

Rich Cruz: for sure. Now, I will say I’ve had my fair share of working with a [00:12:00] bunch of different organizations and, you know, when there’s a, a significant change, I don’t even want to say significant. Sometimes it could be, we’re, we’re going to, we’re going to change this time of this meeting, this one day from here to there, you know, that sends, you know, You know, that, that, that it ignites that blaze, you know, right away.

And so there’s, there’s the, there’s the quiet, polite, you know, smoldering dissonance that happens. And then there’s, there are the outward, you know, I really, really hate this, you know, that, that happens. And we’ve got to deal with, with you know, all of that. So The, what, what I’ve seen is that those, those folks often become like the late adopters, laggards that, that you know, when we, when we look at the kind of spectrum of change and, and the, and the people within the population and how they change you know, the, the, the speed of which they adopt change, you know and, How do we help those people on the end here?

You know, those, those, those late adopters and those laggards, how do we, how do we help them overcome that stress that they feel so that we can bring [00:13:00] them closer to that other, that other side?

Ben Kleinman: So

do we want to, do we want to dig into that in a, in our next moment

Rich Cruz: yeah, let’s. Yeah, let’s do that. Let’s take a quick break. We’ll be coming right back to you and we’ll talk about some ways of managing our stress. Maybe we’ll touch a little bit on that organizational stress. How do we deal, how do we help others through this? And then also talk a little bit about how we manage our, our own individual stress.

So we’ll be back in one second

and we’re back. All right. So let’s just recap. So we’ve talked about what stress is, good stress, bad stress. We talked about some of the outward signs and, and not so our signs of, of stress. Let’s talk a little bit now about how do we, how do we deal with that? How do we, how do we manage that?

What are your thoughts?

Sharyl Volpe: I have been in [00:14:00] different types of situations. And I remember even as a leader, there have been days where I have just wanted to say, I know you feel this way, and I’m sorry, it’s happening like this, but you have to finish. There are days where you just have to have that heart to heart and say, look. You know, and

we’ve talked about reward and motivation before in our podcasts and that that three step reward model that I was talking about in terms of motivation a while ago, I think, what was it reward. Instrumentality and balance, right? Those three steps,

Rich Cruz: Oh, yeah, right? That, that thing. So if there is some reward at that point that you can present, that will reinvigorate someone’s commitment or motivation, but you can’t always do that either. And sometimes it’s just a conversation. Sometimes it’s just, I can tell that you are not totally here right now.

Sharyl Volpe: Let’s have a conversation. Let’s talk about [00:15:00] what’s going on. Are you overwhelmed? Are you doing too many different jobs? Let’s try and take some of that off your plate. Let’s try to get you some resources. Right. And those are the things that I have have used in my actual experience.

Rich Cruz: That makes sense. That’s, yeah, that’s very helpful. And that provides that, that kind of that, that, that space of psychological safety that you know, when somebody is able to actually express their feelings I was just actually listening to a podcast earlier today. Believe it or not this morning that was about about the exactly that, you know, giving people that, that space to express themselves.

And, and, and knowing that somebody is there to listen, it goes a long way.

Sharyl Volpe: And you can’t always just throw more money on it, but again, going back to the production, if you go over budget, nobody wants to do that. There will be different kind of repercussion for that, but there are times where something emerges and you are just going to have to drive off that cliff a little bit. And that will just be one of those things that [00:16:00] shows up as a, as a mark on every financial document for ever after that. It impacts profit impacts. PNL, everything, but it happens sometimes no one’s, no one’s going to die with just one over budget. It’s true, but that happens.

Rich Cruz: For sure. hmm. Sharyl, you had a really nice observation earlier. Maybe one wondering if you could dig into it a little bit more is this notion that leaders in times of stress, the, one of the first things that as a leader, they need to do is just be aware of the situation. They just need to recognize. That there is this heightened stress.

Ben Kleinman: There is a heightened sense of tension that people on the team are behaving a little bit differently or a little bit more Abrupt with each other or work is not getting done. Or like you said, there’s some teammates that are struggling a little bit. And the first thing to do as a leader is just to recognize that, to be aware of it and then try to get ahead of that and try to, like you were just saying, sit with that employee, try [00:17:00] to understand what’s going on, those kinds of things.

Sharyl Volpe: Right. In the nineties, a theory called AETU was the the effective events theory. And it was an outcropping of the whole emotional intelligence. Yes.

Ben Kleinman: Sorry. Can I just say 20 minutes in and rich Sharyl beat you to the acronym.

Rich Cruz: Bless you, I gave you, I gave

Oh, my gosh.

Sharyl Volpe: I gave you 20 minutes, which I, I just, I

Rich Cruz: And completely failed. I’m going to, I’m going to sit with that stress all day now.

Ben Kleinman: That’s a mark that’s going to carry forward for all time, a little, little thing.

Rich Cruz: That’s right.

Ben Kleinman: but it’s a mark that will be in our reporting. I’m so sorry, Sharyl. I cut you off. You were about to explain AET, please.

Sharyl Volpe: I thought you were

about to just explain it for me at that moment, but even better,

even better. So

Ben Kleinman: wouldn’t even do it justice. So at, so tell us,

Sharyl Volpe: AET is a theory that again, came out of the nineties from a couple of guys. That I want to get right Weiss and Capronzano, and this [00:18:00] was a study that they had done that on one hand it may seem very obvious, yes, things that happen at work affect your behavior, but these guys put together this AET, which the basic tenet of it was, Let’s look at the nuances of what that really, really means. I, my, my kids are sick. I can’t call out. My car broke down. There was, I couldn’t get a ride. I finally get to work. Nothing’s working. People are out. That compounding is very real and understanding how that can be identified and addressed. Is part of, of this theory and what leaders who understand this theory comprehensively, there’s 2 things they can do.

And I don’t know if it’s too soon to reveal takeaways on this, but I’m going

Rich Cruz: Oh, can I, before before we do, can I just recap? Cause I want to make sure that I understand the at stands for affective

Ben Kleinman: [00:19:00] events theory. And so it’s not effective, it’s affective with an a, and what that’s getting at is this idea that all these external circumstances or internal turmoil, all of these things are affecting the situation and maybe different people’s behavior and different people’s actions and different people’s internalization of stress and things like that.

And so this whole theory is all about how do you recognize that there’s all this external stuff or internal stuff. There’s all this churn and turmoil and things that we can control, can’t control all of this, just recognize it. And then presumably the theory says, how do you handle it? Do I have that about right.

Sharyl Volpe: You have it exactly right. And you added something very, very important is about the control. One of the major tenets of the theory is you need to identify as an employee and a leader, what is your scope of control? How much of that can you, it’s like the serenity prayer, right? How much of that can you in fact control? And that is part of this theory. But the, [00:20:00] the important part about it was that these things are real. These things do in fact affect a person’s work output. And to ignore it is a mistake. And so the two things that leaders can do, the, the two takeaways from this entire discussion on the theory itself, in my opinion, for this episode, two things, leaders have to be aware these things are happening.

They cannot just stay in ivory tower with their closed door. And pretending that everyone is just going to muscle through and everything will be fine when there is a pile on of events that are causing stress. It has to be addressed. And the other thing is leaders can create a culture where. Discussions around these types of stress and the effects they have on people in their work can be talked about. If there is not a culture of discussion or an open forum baked [00:21:00] into the culture already, then that again, erodes the psychological safety. I’m just going to keep it to myself and I’m going to look for a new job. You’re going to lose me. I can’t talk about it.

Ben Kleinman: You’re demotivating people. So it’s, it’s that awareness and it’s as a leader in particular, it’s self awareness, but also situational awareness. And then it’s enabling or maybe even creating or emphasizing that culture of safety, that culture of communication and culture of psychological safety to make that situation overall be a little bit less stressful.

Sharyl Volpe: You got it. Right.

Rich Cruz: could, if I could address two, two things on that the, the first one on, on awareness, right? We, we often hear about mindfulness and we hear more about that in the literature in the last. Decade, maybe, you know, I think that was probably when I first started to hear about that you know, this mindfulness of this is happening and it’s not even like [00:22:00] we are going to change this right now, right?

Like we’re going to address this. It’s a, it’s literally like the awareness of this is what is, and And, and, and being able to internally process this and helping other people to process what is right. And that’s that’s a pretty important thing that, that as opposed to what had happened in the past was, you know, you might have some acknowledgement of that.

But you might also get, you know, well, you know, tough, you know, there’s you know, there’s almost this, this immediate reaction of defensiveness that would happen with that. Right. Whereas the, the, the, the research seems to support that, that, that acknowledgement and Without the resistance, right?

Without, without that, that, that wall of okay, whatever. But you know, let’s just get back to work. Which is not safe, right? That, that, that’s that I think that’s, that’s a, that’s kind of a big change in my opinion, that’s, that’s really happened a lot lately. Does that bring up? True

Ben Kleinman: Yeah. I, I,

go ahead, [00:23:00] Sharyl.

Sharyl Volpe: I just wanted to say that. You also bring up another point that is part of the AET. And it is that when a leader has their own level of stress, and it might be in these conversations where it’s this open forum in a meeting with an employee, that’s having stress, the leaders also have a perspective. They’re dealing with a whole set of stresses and issues that not everyone You know, it’s, it’s, it’s not above their pay grade right to deal with the most stressful aspects and if they can share some of that in these conversations with the employees and maybe in those one on ones where, look, I know you’re stressed, but let me explain as your leader a little bit more about why we’re having to go this route, right?

To the extent the leader can share some of that higher strategic thinking. So that can also help those other employees, but something you were talking about made me think about the leader’s perspective.

Rich Cruz: hmm.

Sharyl Volpe: Thank you.

Ben Kleinman: Yeah, the [00:24:00] kind of contextual awareness sometimes helps sometimes that sort of taking people out of that level of grass and shrubs and bringing them up to the top of the tree canopy, or even that 15, 000 foot level can help people realize, okay, whatever I’m dealing with. It’s in service of something much bigger.

So let’s figure out how we can get through that. The other thing, which to answer your question, I think there has been this general shift over time. I think where you have emotional intelligence becoming kind of a thing, and now you have mindfulness as maybe another way to express that. And the two of them become very powerful and, and. I think are becoming more rooted both in our culture, at least here in the U. S. and also in the business culture again here in the U. S.

Rich Cruz: Well, another, another thing that I think has been coming more and more to you know, our, our culture, our collective culture and, and I’ve seen, certainly seen it a lot used in coaching cause I’ve [00:25:00] gone through some individual coaching myself, you know, is kind of breath work. Where, you know, not only, not only do we do it ourselves, but we can help others through that too, you know but just some of these, this, these simple like box breathing exercises, because we’re, we’re, we’re maintaining control.

Of ourselves, you know, so we don’t have all we don’t have control over everything, but we can actually have some, some level of control of ourselves. So this kind of I know one that I personally have used is this four, seven, eight breathing box technique where it’s

Ben Kleinman: different

Rich Cruz: breathe in for four, hold it for seven out for eight.

You do this a few times and it’s just, you know, washes washes the, the distress away.

Ben Kleinman: I was, I was reading somewhere that the military trains their soldiers again, just here in the U S that they, they use that as a tool to help soldiers stay calm, stay focused in times of incredible stress. I mean, I can’t

Rich Cruz: Right. Sure.

Ben Kleinman: it’s permitting many avenues of our, of our [00:26:00] culture.

Sharyl Volpe: the first time I learned about it was on the subways in New York city. And there was a point in time where I had a chronic back issue and a friend of mine told me about it. And I did the four, four, four, four, breathe in for

four, hold for four, out for four, and then wait for four before you take the next one. And that was

immediate and miraculous. It took all of that. I’d be standing there. And it is, it’s immediate and amazing how simple it is and completely in control. It was very helpful. I love

it. anybody ever has. What’s

I love that it’s coming into the workplace. It’s such a simple thing and it’s, it’s right on the heels of the EI and

Rich Cruz: Yeah. Well, I, and, and to Actually, in the workplace, right? Some things that I’ve read recently and that I’ve, I’ve actually just recently experienced through our own healthcare provider is that the you know, the insurance providers are offering apps and mindfulness [00:27:00] and breathing for the employees.

So that they, they literally have instant access if they need to break away and they need to have somebody coach them through this, there are these videos and these or these audio cues that they can use to, you know, get back to a level where they can go back and perform.

Sharyl Volpe: Such a great point. Yeah, that’s happening. I have one of my

own, but I ignore it every time it’s time for you to do your stretch.

Ben Kleinman: It’s too, it’s too stressful to open the app.

Sharyl Volpe: It’s very patient though. It never yells at me the next day. It just says we’re ready again.

Rich Cruz: Well, yeah, there you go. You can’t, you can’t hurt the feelings of the, of the, the robot in our pocket. So

Ben Kleinman: Not yet. Maybe that will change with chat GPT.

Sharyl Volpe: Not yet.

Rich Cruz: maybe, Sentient robots. We should save that for another day though.

Sharyl Volpe: Yes. yeah, let’s do that. And with that, let’s, let’s just quickly do a recap of today’s episode. So I we, we were talking about coming off of Discussions of leadership, leadership through common crises, right? We are now talking [00:28:00] about stress. What is it? Yeah, so we’ve got good stress, bad stress.

Rich Cruz: We’ve got the 2nd part of what we talked about some of those signs of stress. So, Ben, you got to. You got a recap of some of that stuff.

Ben Kleinman: Just how, how people behave differently, how people are expressing themselves differently, they come to work differently, they deliver work differently, and just being. It’s, it’s you can sense that change in the air.

Rich Cruz: And then in our, in our last segment here today, we talked about some tools and techniques and ways to manage stress. Sharyl introduced, actually you introduced two acronyms just to be fair, EI, right? Emotional intelligence or and, and then.

Ben Kleinman: acronym counter.

Rich Cruz: And I’m, I haven’t included even one today. So Sharyl wins.

Sharyl Volpe: Yay. Have

Rich Cruz: Hooray.

Ben Kleinman: I think where we, where we might want to leave it is our top two takeaways. As far as things that leaders should be thinking about, leaders should be aware of, leaders should [00:29:00] be doing that first one, especially in times of stress, leaders must be aware of the situation. They

have to step outside of their own bubble, their internal bubble, whatever their team bubble is, and be aware of what’s going on and how their team is performing. And especially in times of stress, they need to create or enable or promote that culture of safety and make sure that that communication is thriving. Make sure that that psychological safety is thriving and really promote those better angels in all of us.

Sharyl Volpe: Thank you. said.

Ben Kleinman: Cool.

Rich Cruz: Let people, express what they’re feeling without feeling like there’s going to be a, Some

 horrible, negative repercussion.

Ben Kleinman: And don’t drum too fast on. I will survive. Thank you.

Sharyl Volpe: Please.

Rich Cruz: You,

 you will cause a lot of stress in the audience and your, and your family.

Ben Kleinman: Thank you

both. Good one today.

Rich Cruz: Thank you.

 Great one. All right. Well, thanks listeners. Thank you for tuning in [00:30:00] to us today. You’ve been listening to the harmonious workplaces podcast. You can find us on YouTube and your favorite streaming platforms.

It’s all streaming from pod bean. Yeah. We are at a harmonious workplaces. com. And with that, we will see you in our next episode. Thank you very much for joining us.

Ben Kleinman: Bye everyone.

Sharyl Volpe: Thanks, Rich. Bye, Ben.

Rich Cruz: Oh, wait a second. We were going to, we were going to do

Sharyl Volpe: Oh,

Rich Cruz: make change your friend.

Sharyl Volpe: make change.

I’ve got some

Ben Kleinman: If we’re

going to do go out in the workplace.

we need some kind of little change, squish em all or change squish mallow or some kind of change, happy change, little stuffed animal thing.

Rich Cruz: change. The little, I’ll, I’ll get on that. I’ll see what we can find. So

 in the,

Sharyl Volpe: sitting here. I’ve got some change sitting right here.

Rich Cruz: good. Well, so until we see you next

Ben Kleinman: the recording.

Rich Cruz: It’s going to make it into the, into the, into the podcast

Ben Kleinman: Maybe the outtake, maybe, maybe our outtakes episodes.

Rich Cruz: or I’ll take real

Ben Kleinman: Yeah.

Rich Cruz: well with [00:31:00] that until we meet again make change your friend for more harmonious workplaces. Thank you very much.

Sharyl Volpe: Bye, everyone.

Thanks for listening to Harmonious Workplaces. You can find Harmonious Workplaces on LinkedIn, Twitter, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon, Apple, and other streaming platforms. We’d love any feedback on whatever channel you find us on. Please rate, like, and share our podcast with your network, and remember to add Harmonious Workplaces to your list of favorites to get notified about each new episode.

To contact Rich or Sharyl, please visit www.WorkBalanceConsulting.com. To connect with Ben, find him on LinkedIn, or visit at www.HarborSideStrategy.com.

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